I am sick of this TOP 4 nonsense...

Everything you read about THFC for the new season has us either getting 3rd or 4th and one 'pundit' has us finishing second place come May. What does this mean in reality? It means we, the fans, are now getting carried away with the hype and yes, after two seasons of finishing 5th on the bounce anything less would be considered failure. But wait a second. What if we did get 5th or 6th this season? OK, OK, no CL money but it's not failure. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not after 15 years of rotten, rotten managers and players. It means stability. It means Europe every season since fuck knows when. It means keeping our best players (Berb will be off but the majority we can keep) and 6th would mean continued success and stability. Five seasons ago you would have bitten my hand off for three successive seasons of European football.

But now look. Now see the massive, massive expectations hanging ominously above WHL. You see that ALREADY Sunderland is a must win game. We may lose and if we do, ONE GAME IN, Jol is under pressure. There is so much expectation that this hype is looking like a mill stone around our THFC necks. Top 4, top 4, top 4. Anything less is failure. Thats the line we've been sold and it's the one most supporters are buying into. If we don't get top 4 we have failed. I argue that if we don't get Europe we have failed not top 4.

The winners as a result of this fever pitch of hype is not THFC, not the players and certainly not Jol. No, it's the press. The build 'em up and knock 'em down British press will be rubbing their hands together and claiming Jol Out from their back pages if we fail in our first three games. Some fans, believing the hype will also be screaming Jol out and this my friends will unsettle our club and give us a siege mentality barely into the season. The expectations heaped upon us may prove too much for us to bare.

Oh, and the other winners of this hype are the vermin, quietly they go about their business with now, no expectations to do anything other than that which they have done season in season out. No pressure. No wild expectations and no ultimatums. Makes life very easy for them. I bet Venger is looking across North London laughing his frogs legs off.

The hype machine is playing into the hands of the press and the top 4 clubs and we, the fans expect nothing less than CL next season, are falling for it. Don't fall for it.

Don't believe the hype.

The press hate Spurs, full stop.
Unfortunately there are a lot of Spurs fans who have fickle as their middle name, the day after the West Ham 4-3 epic I read the 200+ post (not all from GDG) on Spurs Community, and the vitriol that was spewed forth was embarrassing at the very least. Now that we have finished 5th twice, however we did it, peoples expectations have now risen significantly.

I like Jol, he's the man thats put a smile back on my face as far as Spurs are concerned, I really enjoyed last season, we didn't win anything but we weren't far off, as long as we don't capitulate against the big 4 every game I'll be happy.

I disagree me ol mucker. Given the huge investment (compared to most clubs) over the last 3-4 seasons, coupled with two 5th place finishes on the bounce, I expect and demand a top 4 finish. The only compromise is a FA Cup or better still a UEFA Cup win, then a finish outside the top 4 is acceptable.

Are you listening ?

Martin, Martin, give us a wave,
Martin, give us a wave

I should have added. If we fail to get a top 4 finish or a trophy win, I'll be disappointed, but won't be calling for head.

He's the best we've had for donkeys years IMO

ezza wrote:

I should have added. If we fail to get a top 4 finish or a trophy win, I'll be disappointed, but won't be calling for head.

He's the best we've had for donkeys years IMO

Should this be called 'The Founding Father's Thread'?

Mate, I miss Skitz big time.

ezza wrote:

I disagree me ol mucker. Given the huge investment (compared to most clubs) over the last 3-4 seasons, coupled with two 5th place finishes on the bounce, I expect and demand a top 4 finish. The only compromise is a FA Cup or better still a UEFA Cup win, then a finish outside the top 4 is acceptable.

Are you listening ?

Martin, Martin, give us a wave,
Martin, give us a wave

This investment thin is a red herring. Under Levy we have recouped much of the investments into the squad buy wheeling and dealing. Certainly this season we have invested not much more than the Barcodes or Citeh or even those east end mockney chavs from East London.

hongkongyid wrote:

ezza wrote:

I should have added. If we fail to get a top 4 finish or a trophy win, I'll be disappointed, but won't be calling for head.

He's the best we've had for donkeys years IMO

Should this be called 'The Founding Father's Thread'?

haha...reunited and it feels so good! Bring back Skitz Sean. Open another bar in town and save us from Delaneyzzzzzzzzzz (only joking Delaney fans)

I'm with ezza, and Steve McMahon for that matter. Settling for 5th now is no longer acceptable, we've done the consolidating of our position and have improved the squad (though you could argue not in the right posotions), the players themselves are talking about pushing for top four.

It's not just about having the right players and the right ability, they have to have the belief that they are aiming for the top - if we start the season saying 5th place is an acceptable result then we will very likely get what we wish for. We have to start the season believing that we 're pushing for CL, hopefully BMJ has instilled that in the players. If they come up short of that, then we and the club have to deal with that later, but don't tell me now that I should be happy with 5th. And the press can go fuck themselves.

Even Ledders is bigging us up:

[url=https://spursinhongkong.forumotion.com
/Only-THFC-c3/Tottenham-transfers-news-gossip-and-ITK-f8
/King-targets-top-4-skysports-t542.htm]
https://spursinhongkong.forumotion.com
/Only-THFC-c3/Tottenham-transfers-news-gossip-and-ITK-f8
/King-targets-top-4-skysports-t542.htm[/url]

Sorry to intrude on a private thread, hope I didn't disturb your bonding session too much.

thats not the point I'm arguing GDG. Of coure Jol should be pushing for first not fourth to his team. All mangers should do that and our squad is good enough to get us there. What am saying is that manufactured hype around us is too much and is building pressure on Jol and the fans. Pressure we don't need or want.

I believe Skitz is reopening at the end of August, in it's new location above Bulldogs, I don't know exactly what they've done with it, but last time I went in it wasn't the plans that I had drawn up for the place with Donald (new GM, my old Asst. Manager at old Skitz) for them. Be interesting to see.

I'll give Donald a shout to find out what he can do for SiHK in the near future. I'll keep you posted, shall I call it Plan C thread?

GDG wrote:

Even Ledders is bigging us up:

[url=https://spursinhongkong.forumotion.com
/Only-THFC-c3/Tottenham-transfers-news-gossip-and-ITK-f8
/King-targets-top-4-skysports-t542.htm]
https://spursinhongkong.forumotion.com
/Only-THFC-c3/Tottenham-transfers-news-gossip-and-ITK-f8
/King-targets-top-4-skysports-t542.htm[/url]

Sorry to intrude on a private thread, hope I didn't disturb your bonding session too much.

You're a bored legend, most welcome sir.

Quote :

This investment thin is a red herring. Under Levy we have recouped much of the investments into the squad buy wheeling and dealing. Certainly this season we have invested not much more than the Barcodes or Citeh or even those east end mockney chavs from East London.

Investment thing is not a red herring. It's in fact the sign of an astute business man and board, with a clear vision and strategy. I'm all for wheeling and dealing as long as, net net, we end up with progressively better squads and better league and cup positions, without over stretching ourselves financially (a la Leeds).

We've reached a point now where 4th spot is realistically achieveable. We need to grasp it like a mother grasps a child to her bossom (cue IanG with his bag of tricks!).

Accepting and politely commiserating with "second best" is for losers and is very much an English malaise (sp?). Onwards and Upwards I say......cos.....

WE ARE THE TOTTENHAM AND WE ARE THE BEST
WE ARE THE TOTTENHAM SO FECK ALL THE REST
FECK EM ALL, FECK EM ALL
UNITED, WORST SPAM, LIVERPOOL........

it is a red herring if we say that Jol has spent a forutune compared to other clubs (he hasn't) or has pissed it away (he hasn't) or he has been reckless (he hasn't) and we have no reward (we have) for the gazzillions invested.

Money is a moot point and can be argued either way.Agree we have bough wisely (thanks to Jol) and to crucify him if we fail to get 4th is wrong. Very wrong.

The founding fathers are at war. Look away children...

I don't think anything should happen to Jol unless we have the mother of all seasons, sort of a Pleat (not 87) Gross Ardiles Graham rolled into one, I'll be happy with 5th or 6th as long as we see the effort going in. Think the league outside the top 4 is going to be very strong this year aswell.

Personally I think a top 4 finish is do-able. Do I expect it? To a certain extent yes. And why not? We've cleared the first major hurdle by keeping our major players and its there for the taking. Having said that, top 6 IS expected and that at the end of the year would not be a catastrophe and should not signal the end of Jol.

If we were to lose the game Saturday against Sunderland though then why shouldn't Jol be under pressure. They're bloody Sunderland for Christs sakes. If we want to be up there with the big boys then our manager should accept the pressure if we lose those type of games.

A few thoughts.

Success brings higher expectations for any club. Wasn't that long ago Man City were in the first division and Fulham in the second. 2 years ago some Charlton fans were calling for Curbishley to be dismissed on the grounds he had taken Charlton (mid table ) as far as he could.

Dan, I hear what your saying, and no-one disputes our current status in the game is significantly enhanced during the past 2-3 years.

However, Jol hasn't had to work on a shoe string budget. Teams like Blackburn and Reading were knocking on the 5th spot door right up to the last few games. Jol enjoyed far greater resources than any club otherside the top four.

Its not however so simple as "fail to finish top 4th and your out ". It depends on cup runs, injuries, and other factors. Jol has to demonstrate two very important qualities this season.

1). Know his best first 11 and regularly play them in position.

2). Gain a few tactical masterstrokes over his top four counter parts.

If does that and we finish outside top four because of key injuries, etc fans will judge him fairly. If we lose to Arsenal because he played Pascal on the left, Jenas on the right and Keane in the centre, fans will rightly ask questions.

I remember a few weeks ago I asked the question who'd you least like to lose - Jol or Levy ?

I maintain Levy is the greater assist. He has turned Spurs, a club with a modest size ground with no CL finances, into a profitable organisation despite being one of the biggest net spenders in English football.

Jol's been given the opportunity to field the likes of Berbatov, Bent, King, Pascal, Robinson, Jenas, Zokora, Lennon, Keane, Defoe - players that have either cost a small fortune or could be sold for a tidy profit.

He might get away with 5th spot - but it's going to be hard to justify finishing below a side like Blackburn, Everton, Villa or Newcastle with the amount of talent and resources at his disposal.

But as I said, the key for Jol is to demonstrate points 1 and 2.

spur'don wrote:

1). Know his best first 11 and regularly play them in position.

2). Gain a few tactical masterstrokes over his top four counter parts.

I think you have hit the nail smack bang on the head. Jol is certainly the best manager we've had since Keith Burkinshaw and has done well getting the media off our backs. However, there are times when we should all question his tactical awareness and the team's inability to kill a game off. I don't know about you guys but I never feel comfortable watching Spurs and thinking - yep, we've got this game sewn up. Teams like Man U, the West London Chavs and the gooners never seem to let a lead slip against weak opposition as regularly as we do. I was also shocked by the way we played against Arsenal last year. There seemed to be no fighting spirit at all. How on earth could you not be fired up against your biggest enemy?

So all in all we are not the finished product yet. I think the gooners will be as strong as ever and I reckon it's Liverpool of the top 4 that we can overhaul. 5th will be the least we should expect but I'm afraid if it is 5th we get, then we'll be saying goodbye to one or two of our star players, and perhaps BMJ himself.

I agree with quite a lot of what Daniel is saying, but whether we like it or not, the subject on the Spurs finishing place won't go away.

Yes, the media is over-hyping on where we will finish and it get's a touch silly when they start suggesting a 3rd or even 2nd place in the Premiership, not because it's not do-able, but because we're the only team (with possibly Newcastle) that's being built up in order to knock down if we fail.

Having said the above, yes a top 4 place is possible, but it depends on many things, such as injuries, fairing in cup competitions, whether the back-line options hold, whether Jol organises a regular midfield and so on.

Back to the original issue on that top 4 finish - One reason that Spurs are so hyped up in the press is because of Berbatov's outstanding previous season and the other reason is that there's not much to talk about on the likes of Chelsea (except injuries), Arsenal (haven't bought that many new players) and Liverpool (as like last season - unknown quantity). Man Utd for the title seems to be a foregone conclusion and teams outside of the top 4-5 that would improve, would be happy for a UEFA Cup place. It's somehow understandable that Tottenham are the focus for discussion and 'hype'


Stew.

I'm not arguing that the hype will cause Jol undue stress and worry and make players that earn 40 grand a week feel a teensy bit uncomfortable. No, pressure is part of the game and Spurs will have more than most thanks to the press.

My point is this: we are being hyped, we expect top 4. No top 4 and Jol goes (he will, the disappointment will be too much). So what then? We are the New Charlton. As Spur'don mentioned, Charlton were a nothing, shitpot team who were punching above their weight for so long that the fans lost all touch with reality. They were not happy with mid-table Premiership football week in week out. The wanted Europe and CL. FA Cups and the Premiership. The reality was their status as midtable fodder was the best that they could ever hope for. They were blind and so Curbs out. They got their wish and look where they are today. I'm not saying we are like Charlton (long term I agree we should be Premiership contenders) but the example of fans losing touch with reality is a salient one.

We need a reality check, the hype is deluding us; we won't win the Premiership this season (agree BMJ should aim to do so but the reality is that we won't) we probably won't win any silverware (Europe is our best hope) and if we don't get top four (likely) then what?

Because of the hype and expectations Jol Out. Great. Lets get another manager, another Fruitini, another Gross, another Hoddle and lets have another of those fantastic 'transitional' seasons that used to be all the rage at WHL.

If the fans don't mange expectations then this will be a painful season. I can hear the tuts now if we draw at Sunderland. You may want top 4 or nothing but if we don't then what? Jol out? same old same old. I'm happy with Europe this season. Seriously.

I don't want to kill the goose...

Dan - You say your happy with Europe next year. Hypothetically speaking, if Spurs qualify for Europe finishing 6th or 7th and were knocked out of all competitions in the early stages. Would that be a satisfactory season for you?

I'll be honest Twiglet and say that if we get into Europe then I will be happy yes. Obviously my expectation levels are far far lower than most on here. There are many many variables to the season - how did we play? Were the tactics spot on? Were we unlucky? Did we scrape by with bore draws? Did we cling on to one nil leads? etc etc. But if we play good, entertaining football and miss out on CL then I'll be happy.

Based, purely on facts, Europe again I would be happy with yes as long as the signs of pregression were there of course. 6th or 7th is not progression I know but what else would the 'Top 4 or else' brigade suggest? Europe three consecutive seasons is progression when set against the context our recent history.

For all of those screaming for Jols head lest we get CL then please cast your minds back 15,10 or even 5 years back and tell me...Jol Out?

Sorry to say that it is unlikely we will crack top 4. We have a chance and I pray that we do, but it is unlikely. I'm being realistic not defeatist.

I don't think anybody on here is suggesting that Jol should automatically go if we fail to make top 4, but most agree that we should be seriously aiming for it and should be disappointed if we don't get it.

Interesting that people see last season as being an improvement over the season before, even though last season we finished with 60 points and the 2005/06 season we finished on 65. Why an improvement? Because we went further in the cups. But we still didn't win anything. I think Spurs still don't have the depth of squad to challenge for 4th place and also do well in the cup competitions. So which one is it gonna be? 4th place or a few trophies?